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Main Feature: Jim Knight discusses Instructional Coaching and his recent publication The Definite Guide to Instructional Coaching

Regular Features: Steven Kolber discusses Read Alouds and Inclusive Practices in Kolber’s Corner; Cameron speaks with Mark Parry about his podcast Perspectives in Parryville.

Timecodes:
00:00 Opening Credits
01:31 Intro
04:38 Kolber’s Corner
12:50 Mary Parry on Podcasting
31:05 Feature Interview – Jim Knight
51:19 Sign Off
01:06:41 Patron Shoutoutss
01:08:02 Announcements – TER Slow Chat

Links:

• Steven Kolber on Twitter – https://twitter.com/steven_kolber
• Mark Parry on Twitter – https://twitter.com/parryville
• Perspectives in Parryville Podcast – http://parryville.com.au/podcast
• Jim Knight’s Instructional Coaching Group – https://www.instructionalcoaching.com/
• The Definitive Guide to Instructional Coaching – https://books.google.com.au/books/about/The_Definitive_Guide_to_Instructional_Co.html?id=QyuazgEACAAJ&redir_esc=y

Continue reading for Transcript:

Transcript – Feature Interview

Cameron Malcher 

Joining me now is the founder of the instructional coaching group, Jim Knight. Jim, thank you for your time.

Jim Knight 

It’s my pleasure. I’m looking forward to the conversation.

Cameron Malcher 

Well, we’re here primarily to talk about instructional coaching, obviously. And just recently, you’ve published a book called The Definitive Guide to instructional coaching seven factors for success to start off with, especially for those who may not be familiar with the term. What do you mean by instructional coaching? And how does that differ from other forms of coaching?

Jim Knight 

Well, instructional coaching, there are probably many definitions. But for me, the definition is that it’s a person who partners with teachers, to help them get a clearer picture of reality to help them identify a goal, then to help them identify a strategy to hit the goal and then make adaptations until the goal gets hit. And usually, an instructional coaching is a person who has expertise but doesn’t act like an expert. They’re a teacher talking with the teacher. And they they’re deeply respectful of the professionalism of teachers, and they position the teacher but they don’t position the teacher that the teacher is the decision maker in the whole process. So it’s kind of a one way of looking at it, I guess.

Cameron Malcher 

And is the intention of instructional coaching, like you mentioned that the coach has some sort of expertise. Is there a particular relationship with the teacher where someone’s best positioned to serve as an effective coach? Or is it something that any two people who are familiar with the practice can engage with as part of their own professional practice?

Jim Knight 

I think an instructional coach, as opposed to other forms of coaching, and instructional coach has a deep knowledge of effective high impact teaching strategies. Now, those strategies could be related to a specific area. So that could be about teaching, writing instruction, or reading or science or mathematics or some other discipline. Or they could be focused on a particular kind of area, like say, equity or multi linguistic, multi linguistic students or students with learning disabilities. But they have expertise. They know a lot about what it looks like to use what research says about effective instruction, and then and what their own experience shows. And, and, and yet, when they work with teachers, they don’t say, here’s what I think you should do. They don’t give advice. They just they have expertise that’s there if it’s necessary. And often the teacher already knows what they want to do. And they just looks like a more facilitative coach, they would help them accomplish their goal. But sometimes it’s really helpful to have someone when you’re sort of against the wall, and you don’t know what to do have someone who says, Well, why don’t I share a few options, and you tell me if any of these ones give you confidence or give you energy?

Cameron Malcher 

And Jim, we mentioned at the beginning that you founded this instructional coaching institute, how did you come to make this such a significant focus of your life’s work?

Jim Knight 

Well, I’m an English teacher, and mostly writing, although I love literature as well. And I worked with community college students with learning disabilities, I was actually in the doc program at the University of Toronto studying English at the time, and didn’t have a clue what I was going to do. I had no experience teaching, and I was working with the most challenging students in the whole system, I was told. So there was a person there who was an expert on instructional practices for students with learning disabilities, and I work with her and she helped me work with those students and students stayed in the program. They wrote a letter to the president to save the course. I got a an award and a full time job. And, you know, when you work with students who’ve failed for a long time in their life, and they see success, you want other people to know about it. So I, I started 20, Kansas, from Toronto, and became trained in this approach called the instructional coaching model, excuse me, strategic instruction model. And I started to do workshops, and they had zero impact. And people liked the stuff, they just didn’t do it. That time Michael Fullan was at the University of Toronto. It’s probably the world’s leading expert on change. So I was lucky enough to be able to work with him. And he was very generous with his time he did some independent work with him as well as taking courses. Then I started to look at fallin said about change this is when his book change forces came out. And I kept thinking, well, you really need to be in there and provide support and meet one to one and, you know, make it make it easier for people with learning these practices. Workshops just aren’t going to lead any change. And then it just evolved from there. Initially, we call it a learning consultant and then instructional collaborator, then I submitted a paper to the journalist app development. It’s a big professional development journal and United States. And they accepted it and I was talking about instructional collaborators. When I came back, I said, I think I’m going to change the name to instructional coach submitted as an article about instructional coaches, which is the same kind of idea and that was kind of the first major article about instructional coach thing that kind of took off from there. That’s how it has all sort of evolved.

Cameron Malcher 

So you say this started with students in a particular context? Can you walk us through some examples of the kind of growth and change and improvement that you’ve seen achieved through this model?

Jim Knight 

Well, the model first off is agnostic. You know, it’s not really tied to any one particular set of practices. And it’s not really tied to one particular approach. But broadly speaking, I would say the goals that get set are going to be in areas of either engagement or achievement. And if they’re an engagement, it’s going to be about behavioral engagement. Are the kids actually look like they’re participating in the class? Or cognitive engagement? Are they getting out of the activity? What they should be getting out of it? Or emotional engagement? Do they feel safe? Do they feel like they belong? Do they have a connection to they have hope? They have wellbeing? And sometimes people will say, Well, why would you worry about engagement? Shouldn’t you just focus on achievement and engagement is the main reason why students drop out of school, the evidence is pretty clear, I think. And so I think we, we run a real risk, if we didn’t, often, engagement just has to be taken care of before we take care of achievement, or maybe they happen simultaneously, then for achievement, the goals are usually going to be either knowledge goals, or they’re going to be skill goals. So a knowledge goal, you could measure by some kind of check for understanding or quiz that happens all every week to see how kids are performing, like teachers are probably doing anyway, the skill goal probably involves some form of rubric, maybe a single point rubric, or more complex rubric. And then for engagement, it’s pretty observable, if it’s behavioral. And if it’s cognitive engagement, you have to give kids some way of self reporting. And if it’s emotional engagement, it might be something like interactive journal with the teacher or exit tickets. And, and it’s usually quantitative, not because numbers are better, but because it just gives you a pretty precise finish line. I mean, every data you gather, whatever it is, is going to be imperfect. But it gives you an inkling gives you a sense of where you’re going. And you just want to have a finish line for the coaching cycle. However, you might define it. But that’s a long way of saying the goals are mostly going to be engagement goals or achievement goals.

Cameron Malcher 

And what about with teachers when you’re implementing this kind of coaching with, with teachers? I mean, obviously, say this started in your own teaching with students, but when leading teachers through a change process, do you find there any particular different focus areas or different approaches you need to be aware of? Or is it effectively more of a human practice that can be quite generalized?

Jim Knight 

Well, you’re helping people do what they want to do. You know, coaching, if it’s done well, I distinguish between push coaching and pull coaching. So push coaching, it’s not I’m not the first one to use those words. But push coaching is trying to get somebody to do something you think they should do. And pull coaching is pulled forward by that person’s working on the thing they really want to work on. And if I’m an effective coach, I should be in alignment with the teacher and everything I do should be helping the teacher accomplish what they most want to do the thing they’re most concerned about an emotionally compelling goal they want to hit. And so over a couple of decades now, we’ve been trying to figure out what’s the most efficient way to help teachers move through a process to help them identify the goal they most want to hit, help them identify strategies they want to hit. But it’s not something done to teachers, it’s not forced on them. It’s really, it’s really, it’s about helping the teacher identify a powerful goal they want to another way of looking at it is, when you look at real change, change that people sustain over a long period of time. I don’t know that it ever happens, because somebody tells you, you have to do it, it happens because inside you, you want to make a change, we say change happens from the inside out, not from the outside in. And so instructional coaching is about helping teachers identify that thing that really matters to them, the thing they think about when they wake up in the middle of the night, and then and then as a partner, as a teacher, just like your colleague, you’re helping them hit the goal. And inevitably and change. There are moments where people start to doubt themselves. They move from uninformed optimism to informed pessimism, and then it gets darker sometimes. At that point, it’s really helpful to have a coach who can say, oh, let’s look at some other alternative ways we can hit the goal and let’s work it together. And we can do this so we can make it but and not just rhetorically but they have expertise that helps the teacher move forward, but they don’t ever. I think the other thing I would say too about instructional coaching as we define it, is that you know when you define when you read articles about complexity, usually the example of a complex task is parenting a child Well, what about a classroom full of 30 children, if one child is complex, how complex is 30? Children? So I think the coach comes from a place of humility that anybody should have when they confront a classroom, there’s no simple solutions. It’s nothing’s guaranteed, as I always say, according Eric lui, it’s never a one size fits when it’s one size fits all. It’s never one size fits all. It’s always one size fits one, you have to adapt what you do to the situation. And you and the teacher do it together, focused on the thing the teacher has identified that’s most important. John Campbell, who lives in Sydney, who’s the founder of growth Coaching International, he’s often said, you know, a less than perfect goal identified by the teacher is much better than the perfect goal chosen by the by the coach. And And who says it’s perfect anyway, just because I think it’s the one they should do. So I think he’s absolutely right, I want to I want to work with the teacher on the thing they have identified, but I want to make it easier. And teachers are learners, you know, you look at the way a class is taught in the first hour and how it’s taught. At the end of the day, they teach the same classes, it’s often quite a bit different, we’re always changing. But sometimes it’d be really helpful to have a second set of hands a second set of eyes, a partner who can help me, help me work on the things I really want to work on somebody who can go out and find out ideas and bring them back to me. And let’s say I want to work on feedback. And I pick up a couple of books on feedback. Well, what if somebody was there who could help me really understand the essence of that book really quickly? And really right away? Get into? How do we translate it into practice? And what have I learned from other teachers I’ve worked with and make it easier. That’s what a instructional coach does.

Cameron Malcher 

So I mean, obviously, this is a key focus of your book where you identify key factors for success in instructional coaching, can we go over some of those what what do you see as I mean, is one of those seven factors, a key starting point, in your opinion,

Jim Knight 

I guess if there’s one thing you need some kind of process to follow. You need to you need to be moving through a coaching cycle. So you need to be setting goals and helping people’s hit goals and have a process for doing that. If you’re not doing that, it’s kind of like trying to swim. Without getting in the water, you know, you have to do it. But I would say all seven are really important. It’s, you know, the old story of the three legged chair, and if one leg breaks off the chair tips over well, you could imagine a seven legged chair where all the legs are essential. It’s kind of like that all seven things need to be in place. And I can just do a quick summary like, part of it is who I am. So what are the beliefs, the communication skills, especially listening and questioning and engaging in dialogue? And the leadership skills? That’s who I am? And then what do I do is what’s the coaching cycle I follow? What are the teaching practice strategies I share? And how do I gather data to set goals and monitor progress? The goal, the data that the teacher wants, but it’s helpful if I can say here are some suggestions. First thing is who I am. Second thing is where I work or what, excuse me what I do. And then the third part is where do I work? How does the system support me because if I’m working as an instructional coach, and I never have any time to do coaching, I don’t receive professional development, I work in a top down organization, and, and there isn’t really room for partnership approach. You know, the principal doesn’t believe in coaching and a lot of things that could make a difference. So where I work as a critical part two, you’ll see one coach working in two schools flourishing in one school and getting nothing done in the other school, it all has to do with the context in which they’re in. So who I am, what I do, where I work, represent the seven different elements.

Cameron Malcher 

And one of those seven elements more specifically, you refer to as the impact cycle. How do you go about identifying and sort of measuring the impact of successful coaching?

Jim Knight 

Why do you think it’s important that a coach understands how to gather data and those areas identified engagement data and achievement, data? Achievement, it could be something as simple as, as extra tickets, or some kind of check for understanding or little quizzes, could be a more sophisticated like a rubric. I mean, you if it’s a skill, you probably need a rubric. And then how you gather data around engagement, there’s just things you look for like time on task or number of disruptions, whatever the teacher thinks, but being able to suggest some different things to help the teacher choose is really helpful. And then once you understand what data you can gather, those become your goals. So a teacher in a language arts class, for example, say third grade students might want them to learn how to read a well organized paragraph and so they construct a rubric for what a well organized paragraph would entail. teach the kids how to use a rubric for peer evaluation and they work on giving feedback to the students. to do what’s in the rubric is going to be the rubric that’s constructed by the teacher, but it brings clarity to the process. Or it could be in a science class or biology, there’s an exit ticket at the end of each class with a question. And the teacher wants to have at least 90% of the kids have a highly proficient response on there, their answer to the question they do at the end of the day, so. So it could be any number of things. But the goal, the goal is, is starts with data, how do we measure the goal, you need some way of measuring it. And then it’s pretty clear that to maintain motivation, increase your motivation, you have to see progress. And so the data needs to be gathered frequently. Shouldn’t be something that just happens at the end of six weeks or eight weeks, you should be gathering at least weekly. So you can see is it working or isn’t working? And so you can monitor progress? You know, to me, I always say that, if you set a goal, and you don’t measure progress towards the goal, it’s like a GPS for your car that only tells you if you arrived. And it doesn’t tell you where you are you need to know, do we have to recalculate? And usually the first things you try don’t work that well. So you have to make modifications and adjustments, given the complexity of the classroom, given the complexity of that particular teachers approach and philosophy and strengths, you know?

Cameron Malcher 

And is this there’s a phrase I’ve seen used? I think more in reference to your book, I don’t remember if you actually use it in the book itself, where you talk about the science of coaching, is that the sort of process you’re referring to? Or is there? Is there more behind that phrase?

Jim Knight 

I don’t, I don’t think I’ve ever used that term. The only thing that scares me about that term, I mean, is two things. People use phrases like that to take power. You know, it’s like, I know, the science, you don’t so therefore, you should listen to me. And and I kind of feel like if it’s whatever you’re doing is working, keep doing it. You know, I think I think we, I think we’ve been studying this pretty carefully for 20 years. And it’s changed every year, we’ve gotten a little bit better every year, which means we’re not there yet. We haven’t perfected it. And we have written in I presented a lot of research articles, we’ve been a pretty rigorous process, we work with other researchers, but it’s not definitive. To me, it’s like software, you know, if you look at, you know, the Apple Computer in 1984, it had four megabytes of memory or whatever. And now, the phone has got a terabyte of memory, you know. So, technology is always advancing. And I think our ability to coach and our ability to identify the most effective teaching practices, I think we want to keep getting better and better all the time at what we do. So I think you use science to improve what you do. But we’re not we’re not done. I mean, it sounds nice that phrase, but but I’d be hesitate hesitant to, I don’t think we’re done doing doing research, let’s put it that way.

Cameron Malcher 

Fair enough. on that theme of constant improvement and constantly iterating new ways to do things. What would you consider the? If not the new insights? What is it in this recent publication that for you is really a new manifestation of the process? What What have there been any light bulb moments in your practice recently that after even after doing it for so many years, or is there is this book, bringing together ideas that had previously been separate?

Jim Knight 

I’d say there’s a lot of other books I’ve written in this book kind of is meant to be a concise summary of all of the ideas. But there are, there aren’t any major transformations. But for example, when I wrote the chapter on listening and questioning, I looked at over 50 books on listening and questioning. And I didn’t read every word, but I looked up the index of listening and questioning and all those books, and I had read many of them. And there are a lot of new books that have come out in the last couple of years that advanced our understanding of listening and questioning. So a book like thank you for your not listening by Kate Murphy is a really helpful book and had quite a few suggestions and ideas about listening. And more recently, I just read Nancy Klein’s book on questioning. And so I’m not sure if Nancy Klein came after Definitive Guide or not, but But yeah, it’s in, for example, in the impact cycle, it’s a little more efficient, a little more streamlined. There’s more information about the current conversations you have before you actually set up the cycle. And then probably the part that’s most advanced in terms of what we’ve done is the seventh part on system support. We talk about a lot of things that are important around role clarity and a process. I don’t think I’ve ever put that into a book previously. So but in many ways, it’s kind of bringing together in one place What we’ve learned over 20 years, and when it came out, it was the most up to date thinking we had now things are continuing to evolve. But I mean, if you look at instructional coaching that came out in 2006, we really didn’t talk about setting goals, we didn’t really talk about video, we really didn’t talk about dialogical explanations, which is probably a big new part in the Definitive Guide. And some of the core things that like a core idea we have is the kind of goals we set. And the way with the kind of questions we asked to set those goals, all those things evolved through our sort of, we have a design model of research and and kind of came out of that work with teachers and coaches in first in Oregon, and then in Washington State.

Cameron Malcher 

A lot of the things you’ve been talking about, so far to do with the role of the coach, seem to be skills and interactions that are very much what often get referred to as soft skills are part of the affective domain, you know, making people feel safe and supported and, and encouraging them to work on their goals. Is is coaching, obviously, the act of coaching is primarily an interpersonal interaction, what’s going on for the person being coached? Is it more of a social emotional experience? Or how the or is it a balance between the social emotional and the cognitive?

Jim Knight 

Well, I think it’s probably a balance, I would say the coach has a set of beliefs they work from, whether they’re aware of them or not, there are a set of beliefs, those beliefs inform their actions. So if I genuinely believe that I want to do what’s best for this teacher, to have an attitude of benevolence towards them, if I genuinely am open to being changed by the teachers perspective, if I recognize the what Michael Bungay Stanier refers to as the advice trap, I could get sucked into where I tell people what to do and create dependence. And we’ve talked about these as the partnership principles, honoring the capacity of the person to make their own choices and engaging in dialogue and reflective conversation where the other person knows their opinion matters. You know, when I have that set of beliefs, that positions me as a partner, the next part would be a set of skills that naturally fall in I think listening and questioning are skills just like any other skill, there are learnable things, it’s easier for some people than other people. But But I think I think listening and questioning are definitely skills that you can learn. And they’re vital skills, I always say, I don’t know how big ice hockey is in Australia, but in Canada, where I came from, it’s a big deal. And you can’t really play hockey unless you can skate. And with coaching, I think listening and questioning are that important. If you’re not really good at asking questions and listening, you haven’t developed those skills, you need to develop those skills to really be a successful coach. So you engage in a dialogue, and you’re thinking together, but the person should know that you believe in them, that you have faith in them, and that you have an attitude of benevolence towards them, you really want them to succeed, you have to kind of sometimes remind yourself, that’s what you’re doing. Because you can get drawn into only worrying about the students, of course, you want to really worry about the students, but you’re not going to get there by ignoring the teacher. So I think there’s a there’s a, there is a social emotional part, but it is a cognitive process. You know, you are as a coach, you’re a thinking partner with the teacher. You know, it’s a meeting of the minds and you’re thinking things through. And that’s one of the reasons you have to listen so well. Because if I’m going to think along with you, I have to know what you’re saying, I have to hear it. So I can think with you. So So I think I think you said it well, I think it is both it’s both a social emotional, and, and a cognitive activity.

Cameron Malcher 

And can I just get back to something else you said before, when you were talking about how you know who you are, what you do, and where you work, a case summary of the principles and you sort of gave the example of somebody who’s coaching across multiple schools might be flourishing in one, but not succeeding in another where the organizational culture or the hierarchy doesn’t support coaching? Have you seen examples of people being able to effectively coach in what might be termed a hostile or not supportive workplace environment? And and what was key to their success in those contexts?

Jim Knight 

Well, the answer is yes, I have and I don’t know if it was a hostile environment, the example that comes to mind but it was one where the there wasn’t much leadership. And and I don’t mean to communicate a lack of empathy for that challenge of being a principal in a school that’s maybe the most challenging and difficult and important and under appreciated job you could have. It’s so important and so complex and difficult but but the person I’m thinking she was she was able to build Trust, she had credibility in the eyes of the staff, she helped people. Like I think if the coach doesn’t make your life easier, and doesn’t, doesn’t help you reach more students, you’re right to resist, you know, but if the, if the coach is helping you reach more students and do more, be more effective with kids and you should, then you’re likely going to embrace it. And personally, I’m thinking she was really credible. In the eyes of the staff, she had a lot of experience. She was well liked by the staff she worked with, she was able to, but most importantly, she was able to help them do what they wanted to do more effectively. And they could see, she would make their life easier. She could, they could see she would help them live out their purpose, I guess, her lack of better teacher to help them reach more kids.

Cameron Malcher 

And on that subject of reaching more students and helping them do better, you know, as you said, Before, you need data to be measuring your impact and, and constantly know where you are in the process. When you have seen schools particularly embrace instructional coaching as an internal practice. Can you give us some idea of the kind of impact that has had on student achievement and on other outcomes, like you mentioned, time on task engagement, those sort of things?

Jim Knight 

Oh, we did a paper that was when a peer reviewed journal article, it’s on the website, instructional coaching.com/research. And it’s probably the more rigorous study we’ve done. And the effect size on student engagement was 1.02, which is a pretty high effect size. And, and that showed pretty clearly that when teachers focused on certain things, it could make a big difference. So I think that effect size is pretty significant. There. In the book, stories for each chapter of teachers, one one of the people as a coach who work with new students, and new teachers, first, second, and third year teachers and her coaching. No teachers had withdrawn from the program after three years, and doing the coaching. And then there are other stories of teachers who saw big impact on for example, one who in the chapter on the impact cycle, when she was working with a coach, I can’t remember the exact numbers, but the number of students who hit proficiency on the assessment for writing while the assessment I forget what the assessment content area was, but it was less than half of the students and and she set out really high, challenging goal and beat the goal. And you can read the story in that in the book. So we have lots and lots of evidence to show that it works. Yeah. To get the schools we want for students, we have to treat teachers like professionals. And that means we have to engage them in professional discourse, where they’re fully alive and engaged in the thinking, we have to treat them like professionals. I mean, people give lip service to the concept of teachers being professionals, and then they say, and here are the things you have to do. And I think we will never have fantastic schools, if we don’t have engaged professional educators. And to get them we have to treat them like professionals. So to me, the essence of effective professional development, professional learning is the word professional. And in a professional doesn’t do what they’re told a pressure professional, has developed expertise that they apply to complex situations, you know, and I think I would say that’s a core core idea for me, too. And not only that, but it’s much more fulfilling to do a job where you bring your whole brain to the task, and you’re not just doing something somebody told you to do, but you’re really engaged and thinking through. And if you can do that with another person who has tools to help you it’s it’s a really good thing.

Cameron Malcher 

Well, that feels like a great note to end on. Because I think, particularly here in Australia, the issue of professionalism within the teaching profession is currently a quite a significant point of debate. So Jim, the the book is the definitive guide to instructional coaching seven factors for success, and I will make sure there’s a link to that and to your website, in the show notes for this episode. Once again, thank you for your time and look forward to hopefully seeing you in Australia in the near future.

Jim Knight 

You know, I can’t wait to come back. I used to come once or twice a year for over 10 years. And I have Vegemite every day when I wake up Cameron on my toast. I’m like I’m a loyal Australian in so many ways. I watched the AFL on TV and so I can’t wait to come back. I just I really I feel like it’s kind of a second home. I’ve been there so much and it’s been a long time since I’ve been haven’t been there since COVID landed. So I hope to come back soon thanks for the conversation