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In this episode, we present the first feature interview of a new Australian education podcast, Eat the Principals by Jem Kolber, in which she interviews principal Michelle Crofts about the principles and practices that are essential to her leadership practice in schools. Michelle talks about the importance of being flexible and responsive to arising situation in schools, and the importance of getting everyone ‘on the same bus’ within a school.
Education in the News – Cameron explores the relationship between issues of university fees in Australia, the history of higher education funding and the impact of family educational attainment on school learning outcomes.
Kolber’s Corner – Steven Kolber reviews the Frayer Model literacy strategy.
Timecodes:
00:00 Opening Credits
01:31 Intro
02:59 Kolber’s Corner
08:37 Education in the News
37:59 Feature Introduction
52:09 Interview – Michelle Croft
01:36:08 Patron Shout-Outs
Read More for transcripts.
Feature Interview Transcript (unedited, prepared by Otter.Ai)
Click here for interactive transcript.
Jem Kolber
Firstly, I just want to do an acknowledgement of country. So I’d like to acknowledge the traditional custodians on the land that I’m currently on in Melbourne, Victoria, the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation and I pay my my pay my respects to elder’s past and present. And I also just want to acknowledge first nations people as the first teachers, speakers and leaders in this country. Welcome, everyone to eat the principles. I just introduce myself. I’m Jim Koba, I’m an experienced Victorian, secondary school teacher and leader. And I think I might also want to be a principal. And as a way of getting principals, mainly women, some men to mentor me and develop me, I’ve created this podcast as a way of spending time with them. They are leaders that I admire, and I want to unpack what it is exactly that makes them good leaders. And I intend on consuming these strengths and qualities and absorbing them into my own being to become the ultimate principal. I’ll share what I’ve learned with other aspiring leaders. And today, I’m chatting with Michelle crafts. So we have known each other for a long time because we worked in the same school a million years ago, which was an inner city, public secondary school in Melbourne, I was a baby teacher, you were an assistant principal at the time. And I really, when I came up with this idea of interviewing mentors who mean a lot to me, I really couldn’t imagine doing start doing the first one with anyone else other than you, because you were so integral to me and my development at that time in my career. So thank you for being my very first principle to be interviewed for my podcast. Welcome.
Michelle Crofts
Thanks, Jim. That’s very sweet. Thank you.
Jem Kolber
So just as a way of introducing yourself to everyone, I would like for you to finish these sentences that I’m going to throw at you. Are you ready. I’m a principal at Matthew
Michelle Crofts
Flinders girls Secondary College in Geelong.
Jem Kolber
I’ve been a principal
Michelle Crofts
for 11 years. So long time, isn’t it.
Jem Kolber
Prior to that, I was
Michelle Crofts
well, I was the Director of Teaching and Learning at another school in Geelong. And before that, I was the assistant principal at that inner city school that we talked about, you just mentioned before.
Jem Kolber
I’m a principal, because
Michelle Crofts
I love my school. And my staff, I suppose that’s why I’m a principal and my leadership team and Matthew food is I get to work with this team of people who shape and influence the lives of the culture of the school and the lives of young young women, actually. And we try and create a school that allows young women to thrive. So that’s why that’s a pretty special position to be in, as a women, woman leader, and as a woman in our society. And so that’s why I’m a principal at that school. Last
Jem Kolber
sentence to finish one book that was pivotal to my journey, as a principal is,
Michelle Crofts
oh, this was really hard, because there are many books is a principle that you delve into. And you need to read and take snippets from or a question on your own leadership from and that became pertinent in terms of education. And what you need to read, I reckon, depends on the culture of your school and your own leadership journey. But right at the beginning, leadership journey, I did, I had the really good fortune of being in the Eleanor Davis, women in leadership program. And that was sort of like the vapid program now is probably the precursor for the vapor because the people who ran it now run vapor or went and I shadowed a principal part of that program was to look at your leadership and all that sort of stuff. But it was actually a shadowing of a guy called Steve Butan, who was the principal where we Secondary College, and had been for many, many years and was very established and talented principal. And he basically on my first day there, he basically gave me five books to read. That had nothing to do with education. And I was shocked by that. And I thought, why aren’t you giving me education books? Well, I’d read all the bloody education books that were around at that time anyway, so he couldn’t have either I was a bit smug and thought, well, you know, give me something I haven’t read. And he did, actually. And so there was a book called Good to Great, which I can’t like I haven’t read it again since then. But there are a few things that yeah, that’s the one that stood out for me in that book that I needed to grip on to and from the other five books that he gave me at the time. So and those those things that book got me to think about my leadership in a tote and the other books that I read the other four gave me an opportunity to really, really reflect on what it is that I bring as a leader to a school and what I can do better. And what I need to celebrate, really what I need to celebrate was what I got out of it.
Jem Kolber
And ever since you mentioned, Good to Great to me, when we first made contact about doing this interview is I’ve actually, me and Steve, my husband, who was a teacher, now he’s at Melbourne Uni. You know, we’ve just we we both are noticing lots of people are mentioning this as you know, a good kind of leadership development book. Yeah, yeah. You know, people who are presenting or, you know, things that he does at Melbourne Uni or podcasts that we listen to. So there seems to be like quite a big bestseller, I suppose when it comes to leadership. So even though it’s not really specific to schools, it’s still kind of a lot of concepts can still apply. So did you want to talk about like, the maybe like one of the main ideas or concepts that you remember when you read this book and thought, Oh, yes, I’m gonna hold on to that. And I’m gonna make sure you know, it becomes a part of my leadership, development and journey.
Michelle Crofts
Okay, I have three but do you want me to just focus on one? Yeah.
Jem Kolber
Just one No, goal three, that’s fine. That’s great. Yep. Okay,
Michelle Crofts
so the three key things where to stand to find what you stand for in a school. So what are you as a school? What do you do? What do you not do? And so that was really easy it Matthew Flinders, because we’re an all girls school, and all and the only all girls state school in Geelong. So that was really easy. And you’ll remember, I don’t know if you remember that. When we were back at that state school in Melbourne, the inner city school, I think I was talking about this manage, I’d mentioned we need to become a media school because we’re really good at media, we are excelling at media. And that came from this. Remember that? Yeah. And so. So that’s been easy, but it’s interesting, being an all girls school, people try and look for more things that you can do. And I think over my time, as a preacher, I’ve just got to the point where we’re just celebrating that we’re an all girls school, and that girls can thrive in our context, without any of the other challenges that are with minimizing the challenges with a colon context. And it’s actually and that’s what we now market because schools market and, and that’s what I celebrate all the time. So that was one. The second thing, which was really important, and, and I used, like, when I first got the job, at Matthew Flinders, there’s this concept and a lot of people will have heard of is having the right people on the bus going in the right direction at the right time. So I drew actually a bus. And I had seats on this bus. And I put people in the seats according to, you know, where they positioned where the where they were positioned on the bus, in the school, and in terms of power in terms of jobs, or in responsibilities, who were the drivers of change, who were the blockers who was just happy sitting on the bus going in the direction and really didn’t give a damn where it was going, but just wanted to go for the ride. to problem solve the issues when the bus broke down, and who needed to get off. And who and who, you know, who was the presenter that walked up and down the bus that reminded everybody of all the good things that they were going to be seeing in doing so. It was I sort of looked at what I had. And then that book was really good because it made me look at what I had. And I could see what I needed. And what who i Who i needed to move further up the bus who I needed to have with a microphone in hand, who I needed, who was who to put my energy into. Because in a school you inherit staff and you have to work with the staff that you have. And I think I think that was something that I deliberately did that came from that book that I hadn’t really thought about in any other or been exposed to another leadership stuff. And so I found that really helpful and then really working at okay, so I noticed initially that I had very small leadership I like people were just happy to go for the ride. And so I needed to actually empower my staff to be leaders really.
Jem Kolber
And wow, that’s amazing. That’s such a powerful metaphor for schools and staff who work in schools and basically your leadership team as well. That would be a really useful leadership exercise for any principal. In any school, I imagine. And like, Yeah, and just I love that visual nature of it as well, which doesn’t surprise me that you that you did it in that way.
Michelle Crofts
But you also have to revisit by the time you become complacent, if you don’t, and or you don’t notice things, you, you know, wouldn’t it be great to have the whole bus full of like this whole bus to be deciding where we’re going and what we’re doing? And I think when I first started at the school, but I couldn’t do that at the beginning, I didn’t have the right people there and the right culture around it. Whereas now I feel like we have most of the people going on the bus in the right way and want to be there. And awesome.
Jem Kolber
And that, is that still visual that you revisit as well, like even now as being 11 years into the Yep, great.
Michelle Crofts
Anyway, I never shared it with anyone. It’s there. And it’s not saved on the school’s network. It’s not saved on my school computer. Of course, yeah. Okay. Yeah. And I haven’t there. And yeah, just her well, now I use it as a bit of a celebration tool. But initially, it was a bit of a, what’s our next level of work? thing? What was the third theme, or the third thing was about leadership. So Jim Collins bangs on about level five leaders. And so they’re people who they’re committed to their, their workplace. And they they’re people who are prepared to develop leaders, school, really, and who who don’t see them as and who are surrounding prepared to surround themselves by people who are different to themselves. So, in addition to Good to Great, I read another book, which was something along the lines of suddenly about putting your strengths away, go put your strengths at work, I think it was by Marcus Buckingham, go put your strengths at work. So. And it’s interesting, because when you do 360 degree, leadership surveys and things like that, all the data comes back. And of course, people they’re very polite, and they celebrate your strengths. And then they focus on your weaknesses. And this book by Buckingham suggested, which was mentioned, I think, in good for great, this book actually suggests focusing on your strengths. And not that and if you put all the time and energy that you put into addressing your weaknesses, you can actually if you put that in Rex, you’re going to thrive. But you can only do that if you surround yourself with people that you trust, who are very different to yourself into, and that’s what Collins talks about in his book. So it’s about being prepared to have people who are different to you, around you, and being prepared to be challenged by them, being prepared to not always be right. And being prepared. And having a culture where I think it’s that Brene Brown rumble culture, you know, where you you’re prepared to really test or something through to get to a good solution, the best solution for the kids.
Jem Kolber
Yeah, great. That’s awesome. Yeah, I loved those. I love those three concepts that you’ve mentioned, from good to great. So I love that, you know, do pick that pick that one thing that you want to do and do it well, I think what happens is we have so many competing priorities in the school. And then it’s just really hard to kind of just choose that one thing that we will choose, you know, that we’re going to do and we’re going to commit to and we’re going to do that one thing really, really, really well. And so, it’s in Good to Great, you know, Jim Collins, he kind of uses the metaphor of the hedgehog. It’s, you know, a hedgehog is really good at doing one thing it can, you know, can kill itself into a ball to protect itself. And so, you know, when leaders, I think, you know, when I’ve worked at schools where leaders have a really strong vision of what their school is, you know, they’re like, Okay, well, we’re committing to media, we’re committing to education for girls. So it’s just that one thing and it kind of it kind of helps you as a teacher and as a, you know, a middle leader as well kind of sift through all of this stuff that’s thrown at you in education. So that’s really important. But I really do love that bus metaphor. And that visual that you that you kind of painted for us as well. And I think that would be a really good exercise to do, even though I’m not a principal in a school, but maybe just thinking about, when I am a principal, if I make it to being a principal, just kind of doing that as a little kind of leadership activity for myself as well. You
Michelle Crofts
could do it on your own name. So you don’t have to be a principal of a school. So if you’re a faculty leader, or doesn’t really matter, even if you’re a staff member, you can look at it and go one of your buddies and what they do, and yeah, I think that that’s, it’s a really good exercise. Hmm,
Jem Kolber
I love that. Thank you. Okay, Michelle, let’s get practical with my 54321 protocol. Okay, so I’ve already given you a heads up, but I was going to ask you these questions. So hopefully, you’ve had a think. But I’m sure you’re a principal, you’re able to think on your feet. That’s one of your skills that you probably require in your job. All right, so first thing, five things in your office slash desk slash work bag that are crucial doing crucial to doing your job. Or
Michelle Crofts
really boring things. You know, crucial, my computer, crucial whiteboard, my why I a big whiteboard in my office, and it gets drawn upon in group things. And the phone is needed to take photos of it because people worry about Yeah. My bike sits in my office. So it’s crucial to me being a principal. But I think that will relate to something a bit later on. And I’ve actually put the office location has been important. So I used to be stuck away in that area where the principal’s office was originally built. And when we managed to rebuild, I’ve now got this little office right in the center. So every day I get to see everyone walks past my office. And so and there’s windows. That’s fascinating. Yeah, and so my daughter’s donating.
Jem Kolber
And that reminds me that reminds me of there are some American principals who they’d actually don’t have a room and office with a door. They have like these roving trolleys that has that has their computer and everything on it, their mobile phone and everything they need. And they just roam the hallways, yes, they roam the hallways, because they you know, they’re wholly committed to that idea that principals need to be visible and need to be accessible at all times, not only to their staff, but also their kids. So you know, if you want to take that one step further, maybe, you know, think about getting a trolley and just walking around around the school grounds those. Yes, I think it was Tiktok that I might have seen it on. So yeah, there’s this principle that just you know, does tick talks about you know, what it’s like to arrive, you know, Rome, his hallways on a trolley. That’s so funny. I love it. Okay, for so we did five now for what, uh, for daily practices that make you a leader?
Michelle Crofts
Well, you might remember the first one. So first thing in the morning, I go to the staff room, and I say hello to everyone. And I have little chats, people are up for a chat. But if they are keen to do their work, I just leave them to do that. So that’s the first thing I do every single day. And, yeah, I walk around the school saying hello to the kids. So that’s in the morning, or it could be in the afternoon. It could be at lunchtime, I recessed but I actually walk around at one of those times when people are moving between classes. Hello, good morning. Hello, how are you? Sometimes I have a chat with someone. Tell me about this or what was your weekend like? Or did how did you go at the Netball club that I knew you’re going to be competing in or the trial? So that’s the other practice that I try and do every single day. Sometimes I don’t always manage but I try every day.
Jem Kolber
Yeah, that’s great. Because because the classroom teachers do that all the time. So it’s kind of like you know, you obviously don’t have a classroom to go into but you know, you as a classroom teacher, you have to read the have to read the room from the you know, first moment when the kids are walking in. So you’re kind of taking the pulse of your staff and your students first thing in the morning. Yep, that’s terrific. I love it.
Michelle Crofts
I do have a classroom to go into first. I haven’t taught Yeah. Oh,
Jem Kolber
you teaching? Oh, I didn’t realize that’s exciting.
Michelle Crofts
Yeah, no, I’ve kept that up. That’s awesome class. And it’s usually like year seven or a year eight. oh nine or 10 or something. But yeah, just trying which class? Sometimes it might sometimes it’s English last year because I thought I was taking leave, I actually ended up doing replacement classes when people were on leave. And I didn’t like that as much, because I like having my own class. I know you, you would understand that. But yeah, and I’ve been on this term. So when I go back home, no doubt, I’ll have something. Yeah.
Jem Kolber
So I love that I love it. When I, I know that a lot of kind of principles kind of aspire to teach a class and then you know, something happens. And then they don’t, they don’t end up teaching the class. But I think, you know, if I, if I do, if I do manage to make it to the principal level, I really, I think, I feel like you need to, you know, like, once you’ve been out of the classroom for a couple of years, it’s like, you kind of you forget what it’s like, don’t you but so going into a class every day, even if it’s just you know, like a, you know, a, a, you know, just once or twice a week or something, I think it just kind of keeps you in touch with teaching and the kids and all that kind of thing as well. I just love that you do that. And of course, you do that, because I admire you.
Michelle Crofts
And that’s terrific. It’s a cycle, that’s important to remember. So it is a principle, you can easily get caught up in your own cycle, which is very different than needs of a principal that, you know, the workload of a principal is very different to the workload of a teacher cycle. And sometimes you can forget what that where the teachers are in that, I think.
Jem Kolber
Yeah, yeah. 100%.
Michelle Crofts
So that was two, three notes. So that was walking around,
Jem Kolber
it was two, okay, three,
Michelle Crofts
I check in with my team. So I have a leadership team. And I check in with them. So I have a like a slightly longer conversation with them. So don’t miss it. Not every one of them every day. But over the course of the week, I will have had a decent conversation with each of them. And in probably multiple actually, but I actually deliberately walk to their office, have that conversation and to see what’s coming up for anybody to help them or be the source of blame, or, or the source of, you know, the question them or whatever. Yeah. And then I you know, the other thing I have to do as a leader is I have to deal with my mail every day. And I think every piece is different ways of dealing with it. And there are a whole bunch of different theories on how to and I tried a whole bunch, but I just, I try and get around each day. So the emails that come in, yeah, I try and address them every day, so that I don’t get behind. And that means sometimes I just read the heading and delete. And or I just say, I shouldn’t delete, but I’ll try to save it somewhere where I can actually come back to it if I need to. And then you could, as a principal sit there all day answering emails. So being quite thoughtful about how you do that, I think is important. But that might change depending on where you are in your principalship and what the school culture is and what the school needs are. So that over time, but I also have that time where the mail, I don’t look at it. So I used to try and be the very best principal I could be and then I’d read my mail at 11 o’clock at night. And then I’d be upset and not able to sleep or that type of thing. So I have to deal with the mail, and then turn it off and deal with it the next day. Yeah.
Jem Kolber
Okay, so that’s the strategy that works for you kind of dealing with it at a certain period of time, and then kind of, and then, and then putting it away. Because I mean, I know as just as like a classroom teacher, or kind of like a middle laid out, you get tons of emails, you know, like you could take a day off, or you know, a couple of days off, and then all of a sudden, there’s like, you know, 83 emails or something you need to deal with, and I think principals, you would probably get a lot more than what, than what a regular classroom teacher would get as well. So and that’s really interesting to hear you talk about, like, you know, you’ve read theories on how to deal with emails, because I’ve heard, you know, some people, you know, it’s not the first thing they do in the morning. So they leave it until like, you know, you know, 10 o’clock in the morning or something like that, or, yeah, or you know, doing them for a certain period of time and then switching them off. So did you manage to find any of those strategies worked for you? Or is it just just have to do them at a period of time and then and then you know, move away from them? No,
Michelle Crofts
I come to them at certain times in the day and each day will be dependent. What I have on, but I have like I I might see them first thing in the morning, but I might go and do my rounds first and then sit at them but because people will Want, you know, they contact you. So they want to know that they’ve that you’ve, you’ve heard it, or seen it or understand it or thinking about it. And then I come back to it in the middle of the day sometime, and then I come back to at the end of the day, but I do have to do catch up emails at that time. So where I just sit there, and I just, I have to just work through the emails. And if it stays in my email inbox, then I have to deal with it. So it’s still something to deal with. So I know. Yeah. Then I’m better. You’re right. Yeah.
Jem Kolber
I do I do the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and I do the same thing. So I basically, if I don’t need to, if I don’t need, if it doesn’t apply to me at all, and I don’t need to respond, I just click archive. So I’m not deleting it. So I can still kind of find it if I need to find it. But yeah, and then I just leave whatever, whatever’s there. And that I have to deal with at some point in time. That’s really sorry. It doesn’t surprise me that your four daily practices involve communicating. So every single one of those was communicating, and, you know, yeah, checking checking in with people in a variety of different ways. That’s awesome. So alright, so five for now, three. So we know that being a principal is it’s really hard work. It’s a really demanding job. You know, and we know that principals comp, a lot of abuse and harassment in the job, hopefully you don’t too much. But that, you know, plenty of principals have got had some really awful experiences, you know, dealing with it in that kind of in that kind of a job. But it. And we also know from research that there are some really serious concerns about principals, health and well being mental health in particular. You know, we, we kind of, you know, when I talk to people about maybe why I want to be a principal, sometimes they said, Well, why would you want to do that, because we know, principals kind of shorten their lifespan from the research that we’ve, that we’ve done on them, because the job is just so stressful, and so taxing and so demanding. But you obviously do it for a reason. And you’re able to look after your health and well being to a certain extent. So what are three ways that you can look after yourself, Michelle,
Michelle Crofts
I like to preface that I don’t think I looked after myself very well, when I first started as a principal. So I have to learn to do and there is a huge difference between schooling and a principal level. So things that I’ve learned is that I have to, for me, personally, and not everybody’s like this, but I have to exercise. So if I exercise, I’m in a much better place. Because when I exercise, I process my emotions. And that’s the one thing you have to be able to do, as a principal have to understand your own foibles, you have to understand your own triggers, you know, your childhood things that we surface. And so I think, during exercise, and I tend to do additive, sort of, like I swim, or I ride a bike or I run, so they’re repetitive things. So there’s a bit of metadata in it, I suppose. But it allows me time to process stuff. And so I have conversations that I’d like to have with people, when I do that. And then I try and work out the good way to have that conversation, so to speak. So that’s one thing is exercise. And I cannot, not everybody’s an exercise person. But even then I think, if you were to be out walking, you know, something where you’re actually in nature, doing something is really important. The second thing is, principles don’t get time in lieu, and we were this bit cheeky this one, but it’s true. So we don’t get time we lose so and we probably couldn’t, because if we did, we’d have, you know, semesters off. But yeah, but we were told to manage our own time. So in my principle team, we encourage one another to manage our time. And how we do that, is we talk about it together. And then we actively encourage each other to do that. And you know, people who are in leadership positions are notoriously bad at doing that. But where if you listen and trust the people, and you the long term of you doing it, even if it’s simply something like staying at home in the morning to write the things that you need to write so you’re not interrupted at five times the amount of work done that you need to do or whether that means coming in late because at a very late night last night and you just need some tools time so that you your best possible self to be at work. So manage your own time is one. And then I suppose
that the third way is to Well,
Michelle Crofts
it’s hard to have just three things, but I suppose it would be I know, yeah. Give yourself if you can, as a principle, to with a leadership team that is loyal, and prepared to challenge you. That you can trust implicitly, is like heaven. And you have that team. And you, you are looking after yourself, because they’re looking after you. And you’re looking after them. It’s a little family. So
that’s pretty special.
Jem Kolber
Do you think do you think lots of principals have have that? Or is it unusual? Is your situation unusual? With your leadership team?
Michelle Crofts
I think no, I think principals do surround themselves with people. When they can often you like, initially, I inherited leadership, and then try and find people was I had to find them. And then now I’d be on my own leadership team. But I think principals do do that. That the danger with principles, though, I think with people in general is to surround ourselves, like people that are like ourselves, but as the good to great.
Jem Kolber
is the best thing to do. Yeah.
Michelle Crofts
Yeah. And so, you know, both of my IPAs are similar or different to me. And my, you know, my business manager, they’re all similar and different. And sometimes their differences get right up my nose. But I also know, they’re probably right, you know, and it’s, and I knew really need to.
Jem Kolber
Yeah, yeah. Okay, love it. Alright, number two. Sorry, we have a really full on teacher shortage at the moment. It’s really hard to fully staffed schools at the moment, if you are a principals, you know, there’s 1000s of jobs on recruitment online at the moment, that’s the portal that we use to, to advertise and recruit people in the state system in Victoria. And we have a principal shortage too. So you know, principal jobs that used to attract a really high number of APS or, you know, experience leaders, and, you know, it was a really competitive thing, you know, sometimes they can’t get some decent applicants or any applicant applicants for the job. So, two reasons that I, because I’m still on the fence about this, that I or other aspiring leaders should become a principal, why do it
Michelle Crofts
only to more women leaders in the first place, I’d like you to do a disproportionate number of women leading teachers versus assistant musicals and principals. And I understand that because I sat in that space for a long period of time. Because it’s an I was the primary care at home, you know, I do think we need to actively encourage more women, to be leaders and nurture them to be leaders and help them to understand how they can be primary carers, but also in a,
Jem Kolber
you know, to be able to do both. Yeah. Yeah. So that’s
Michelle Crofts
probably not a reason. But I do think people more women need to be leadership. Yeah. I think, you know, I think you get to a point where you want to challenge yourself, and you feel you can rent. And so if you feel like you can make a difference, and you want to be challenged, and you want to keep on growing, then it’s, it’s one way of doing that. There are lots of ways of doing it. And there are times in your life where you might choose a different path, and then perhaps come back to that path. But I think it’s a really great job. It’s to have the ability to influence a culture and be really into, you know, support other adults to have a new yourself to have an impact on young people’s lives. And I know you can do that as a teacher but you shape that culture a lot more or you do shape a culture in your classroom. Hmm to shape the whole school’s culture. Uh, and you know, it’s exciting, you know, I can go from cleaning up puke, to deciding on colors of walls to budget stuff to, you know, communicating, running professional learning on, on well being, you know, it’s actually a really interesting job. And as the principal, you do have your head around all of those things, and it’s exciting, you know, it’s good.
Jem Kolber
Why wouldn’t Yeah, that’s awesome. I love, I love that I love that you were talking about how we need more women leaders, and you know, you and I could probably talk for hours about this, and, you know, the need, yeah, we need, we need women to be actively developed to take on these leadership roles. And, you know, to be able to do both to care for a family, but then also, you know, lead in your school, women are capable of doing both, we just need a system set up to, to enable that, I suppose. And then I love that you talked about, you know, it’s a way of challenging yourself, because, you know, something that Steve and I, my husband and I talk about is that you know, when things are scary, or you know, when when you get nervous about something, it’s actually really important to listen to that and do it because it’s important to you. And it’s important to do scary things to develop and grow. And as a classroom teacher, you know, if you did a poll of all the teachers in the world, you know, most of them would probably say that, you know, learning that they want to be lifelong learners, and they want to develop that in their students as well. So cool, I love those reasons. Maybe I’m less on the fence now than I was at the start.
Michelle Crofts
I think the challenging there, Jamie is that I feel like a lot of my women leaders want to already be established leaders and know they can do the job before they get into it. And, you know, I have two or three sitting in my staff now who are at an assistant principal level and aren’t assistant principals in other schools. And could be, but I see, it’s interesting to watch some people who, not necessarily my school, but in, in, in general, some, like, sometimes, the boys will put up their hands a bit more readily and good on them. Because there’s that there’s that
Jem Kolber
there’s that saying of, you know, there’s that saying of, you know, looking at some key selection criteria, and a woman would look at that key selection criteria and say, Oh, no, I won’t apply, because I don’t think I can do all of them. Whereas a man would look at the same key selection criteria and go, I could do some of them. I’m gonna put my hat in the ring and go for it anyway. So it’s kind of like that confidence. Between us. Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle Crofts
And, yeah, it’s giving people that confidence to do that. Earlier would be true.
Jem Kolber
Yep. Love it. All right. Last question for you before we finish so and this is about a leadership quality. So you know, I’ve worked with I worked with it was a long time ago. And we’ve we’ve stayed in contact since but you know, what I admired about you was that you, you were inspired, you were really, you know, you were assistant principal, you are, I love this idea of, you know, the principal being the lead learner in the school. So you are modeling for your staff, you’re modeling for the kids what it is to learn and then to share that learning with other people. And I, you know, I remember you and I leading some professional development for English teachers around the six plus one writing traits. I know that recently, you ran some professional development for your staff, around setting up classroom norms. And I just love that you are leader learner as principle. So that’s what I that’s a quality that I really admire in you. But I want to hear from you. What is one key leadership quality that you believe that you embody, that allows you to do your job well. So if you could, you know, whittle it down to one thing, which I know is really hard, because you are multifaceted, and you’re amazing in many, many, many ways. But yeah, what’s what’s what’s one key leadership quality?
Michelle Crofts
I reckon it would be interesting to ask that with my staff, because they would all come up with Yeah. Yeah. I think the one leadership quality that I’ve had to draw on the most probably, and I think I agree with you, I think I’m a learner leader. So that was how I describe myself. But beyond that, I would have had to learn to be flexible. So come into a school and you think, Oh, I’m going to come in and do this, this and this and then you realize that They’re actually at a different stage in, you know, on the continuum or, or suddenly everything’s going pear shaped, and you have to change what you want to do. Or you have a timeline that you want to introduce a program by, and then COVID hits, or Rathmann member leaves, and do you then and they carry that knowledge and need for them leaving. And so you have to go back to the beginning again. And I think learning to be really flexible. has been admin, for me. In that role?
Jem Kolber
Yeah. Yeah. And so how so how do you so how do you remember to do that? Like, how, how can how can I practically take that leadership quality on? I mean, I suppose I would do it as a classroom teacher, you know, I’m constantly flexible in my classroom, you know, thinking my kids are able to do something, or then, you know, they’re not having to rethink my unit plan, you know, all that kind of stuff. But so, I mean, how do you how do you remember to be flexible? Because it would be so easy to go nine and over, here’s the, here’s the, here’s what we’re doing. Here’s my timeline, we’re going to do this, this, this, this, and that’s just the way it’s happening. So I mean, how is that? How is that something that you
Michelle Crofts
remember to do? That’s why you surround yourself by other people who remind you to be like, yeah. So when you’re stomping around in your office going, Oh, why can’t we just do blah, blah, blah, they go well? Yeah, and you know, when you’re swinging up and down the block, or you’re doing your exercise or something, you’re really reminded of it. So is they’re all sort of interlinked, and I know being flexible, doesn’t sound very exciting. But I think it’s the one thing that you know, that I’ve had to draw on the most as a principal like flexibility with budgets, flexibility with staffing, you know, in in staffing changes from July through to February, every year, every week, something is so you just have to be resilient with that, but flexible enough to make the adaptations and to plan for them actually.
Jem Kolber
Yeah, I love it. Okay, well, thank you, I’m going to just golf gobble up that leadership quality of flexibility because remember, I’m absorbing all of this into my own being to become the ultimate principal. Thank you so much, Michelle, for being in my inaugural episode. Like I said, I couldn’t have imagined doing this with anyone but you so it meant like we had to like reschedule this so many times because you know life things happen you know, you’ve just become a grandma all these exciting things. And you know, school year started and I’ve started in a new school and all this kind of stuff but I really couldn’t have imagined doing this with anyone but you thank you so much for your time and for sharing with me and spent and spending time developing me. I just love you and I wish that you were in an inner city school in Melbourne and I would work for you again. See, you know, in a second.
Michelle Crofts
You will be fine. You will be a great principal. Jim, you will make a great one.
Jem Kolber
I look forward to seeing you. Thanks Michelle.